this dialogue was published in reo
a journal of theology and ministry
issue number 32, 2007, 2, pages 65-69
Monday, December 3, 2007
Part One
Anachronos. A slum in Sheol. Historians don't go there.
Anytime before or after Paul (10-67) spoke to the Council of the Areopagus. (1).
When Epicurus (341-270), who represents Anachronos in the Council, was on his way home, he bumped into Socrates (470-399).
Socrates: Hello, Epicurus! Why are you sniggering?
Epicurus: It's incredible! You won't believe what I've heard!
Socrates: Try me!
Epicurus: I've been listening to Paul, a barbarian from Tarsus. He believes the God raised someone from the dead. Someone called Jesus, who was crucified by the Romans. It's about as unbelievable as it gets!
Socrates: Epicurus, it's about time you updated your atomic theory. Once you discover what quantum physicists believe, you won't find anything incredible! But, yes, it's an unusual story. Tell me, how long was he dead?
Epicurus: I'm not sure. You know how bad barbarians are about time. Everything lasts for 40 days, or happens after three days. Anyway, I think Paul said he died on a Friday afternoon. He was buried on the same day and he appeared to some of his followers early on Sunday morning. So, I suppose he was dead for about 40 hours.
Socrates: Did Paul tell you how the God resuscitated Jesus?
Epicurus: No. But it wasn't a resuscitation. Apparently, the God changed his physical body into a spiritual body. Into a body that can't die. Into a body that'll live forever. (2). That's why the story's so incredible. It's so different from the stories about Lazarus or Apollonius.
Socrates: Yes, that sounds like transfiguration rather than resuscitation. But tell me, has Paul convinced you that, when a person dies, when her soul leaves her body, it continues to exist? I mean, did Paul say there was a time when Jesus didn't exist? That for about 40 hours he was completely wiped out, before the God recreated his soul and transformed his corpse into a spiritual body? Or did he say that when his soul left his body it went to another place? A place like Hades, where it was asleep or awake?
Epicurus: I think he said, or implied, the latter. That, when his soul left his body it went to Hades. And, then, about 40 hours later it returned to his body, which the God changed into a spiritual body. I think that's Paul's story. In the strict sense of the word, Jesus didn't die. Only his body did. And so, I suppose, there never was a time when he didn't exist.
Socrates: I understand your uncertainty about what Paul said. When we want to talk about death and dying, we struggle to find words for the ideas that comfort us. Why, only last week Crito asked me how I'd like to be buried!
Epicurus: He must've been joking! What did you tell him?
Socrates: What I always tell people. (3). As you please; provided you can catch me and I don't get away from you!
Epicurus: I'm sorry! You've lost me. What do you mean? It sounds as if you believe that dying is like migrating from one place to another. That it's like surrendering your citizenship in one place and acquiring citizenship somewhere else. You are beginning to sound like Paul. (4). Neither of you seem to think the story of your death is the last paragraph in your biography. Both of you think there's another paragraph. A story about slipping away to another place. Or a story about having an ugly and weak physical body turned into a beautiful and strong spiritual body. (5). I'm sorry! I just don't get it!
Socrates: Paul will have to speak for himself. I'm not into physical or spiritual bodies. Or, to be more precise, at the moment, I'm a soul in a physical body. But, when I die, I'll cease to exist, or I'll go to a place where people don't have bodies. I wish people will accept that I'm my soul. That it's my soul who talks and argues with you, instead of thinking I'm the body that's going to become a corpse. If you understand this, when you see my body being burned or buried, you won't grieve, as if something dreadful had happened to me. I sincerely hope you won't think you're burying me. I hope you'll see it's only my body you're burying. (6). Surely, that's not too difficult to understand? And so, I don't get what you don't get.
Epicurus: Fair enough. I should've been more explicit. I get your story. Dying is like migrating from one place to another. It's the ultimate trip! What I don't get is why you believe you'll make the trip. Why do you believe that, when you die, you'll start having a new set of experiences? Why don't you accept what I believe? When you die, you - or, if you like, your soul - is wiped out. It's obliterated. It ceases to exist. And so, when you die, that's it! You don't have a new set of experiences. Instead, you stop having experiences. This is why I've said nobody will ever feel what it's like to be dead. When we're alive, we can't feel what it's like to be dead. When we're dead, we also can't feel what it's like to be dead. (7). Why don't you and people like Paul get it? Dying is as uncomplicated as a candle going out. It's like being erased. Bingo! Your number comes up and your light goes out!
Socrates: I don't know what Paul would say about your story. As for me, it makes sense. In fact, at my trial, I told the jury we shouldn't suppose that death is something terrible. It's one of two good things. Either it's annihilation, as you believe, and so, when one dies, one doesn't have any new experiences. Or it's a change, a migration of the soul from this place to another. (8). I know I can't prove that dying is like migrating. But I hope it is.
Epicurus: I'm not looking for a proof, Socrates. But, tell me, why do you have this hope? Why do you hope that dying is like migrating to another place rather than being wiped out?
Socrates: The stories Pythagoreans tell about the transmigration of the soul have captured my imagination. You see, I understand your story. But I've invested my hope in a story like theirs: but it's a story about migration rather than transmigration. But I'm glad I've got your story. If my hope's disappointed, I'll never know that I backed the wrong horse!
Epicurus: I'm glad to hear that. It's a fair account of the difference between your understanding of death and mine. I think you should try to talk to Paul. Your stories are different; but you both hope to have experiences after you die. Neither of you share my belief that the universe consists only of atoms and the void. (9). Unlike you and Paul, I believe everything that exists can be detected by our senses. It can be weighed, or measured, or observed. That's why I don't share your hope. The two of you believe there's another world. A world that can't be detected by our senses. A world that isn't governed by the laws of physics. But that's enough from me. Let's go and see if we can find Paul. I'd like to hear what he says about our disagreement.
Socrates: That's a good idea. Also, I'd like to ask him why his hope rests on the belief that the God raised Jesus from the dead. I find this strange. Before he heard about Jesus, he must've known that the Pharisees believe the God raises the dead. So, why didn't he believe their story? Why didn't he believe the God raises the dead, until he heard that Jesus had been raised?
Epicurus: I don't know. But let's try to get his answer.
Socrates: Indeed. But it's more perplexing than that. He must've known what the Pharisees believe. But he also had Solomon's wisdom, which I was tempted to quote at my trial: In the eyes of the foolish they seem to have died, and their departure was thought to be a disaster, and their going from us to be their destruction; but they are at peace. For though in the sight of others they were punished, their hope is full of immortality. (10).
Epicurus: Look! There's Dionysius and Damaris. (11). And Paul's with them. I hope she's taking them home. I like her cooking! Let's see if she'll invite us to join them. It's a good way to celebrate my belief that it's easy to be happy. You only need a bit of food and a few friends. (12).
References
1 = Acts 17.16-34.
2 = 1 Corinthians 15.42.
3 = Plato, Phaedo, 115c.
4 = Philippians 3.20-21.
5 = 1 Corinthians 15.43.
6 = Plato, Phaedo, 115c-116a.
7 = Epicurus, Letter to Menoecus.
8 = Plato, Apology, 40c.
9 = Epicurus, Letter to Herodotus.
10 = Wisdom of Solomon 3.2-4.
11 = Acts 17.34.
12 = Epicurus, The Four-fold Medicine (Tetrapharmakos): You don't have to be afraid of the God. You can't feel what it's like to be dead. It's easy to get what's good and to endure what's terrible.
Anytime before or after Paul (10-67) spoke to the Council of the Areopagus. (1).
When Epicurus (341-270), who represents Anachronos in the Council, was on his way home, he bumped into Socrates (470-399).
Socrates: Hello, Epicurus! Why are you sniggering?
Epicurus: It's incredible! You won't believe what I've heard!
Socrates: Try me!
Epicurus: I've been listening to Paul, a barbarian from Tarsus. He believes the God raised someone from the dead. Someone called Jesus, who was crucified by the Romans. It's about as unbelievable as it gets!
Socrates: Epicurus, it's about time you updated your atomic theory. Once you discover what quantum physicists believe, you won't find anything incredible! But, yes, it's an unusual story. Tell me, how long was he dead?
Epicurus: I'm not sure. You know how bad barbarians are about time. Everything lasts for 40 days, or happens after three days. Anyway, I think Paul said he died on a Friday afternoon. He was buried on the same day and he appeared to some of his followers early on Sunday morning. So, I suppose he was dead for about 40 hours.
Socrates: Did Paul tell you how the God resuscitated Jesus?
Epicurus: No. But it wasn't a resuscitation. Apparently, the God changed his physical body into a spiritual body. Into a body that can't die. Into a body that'll live forever. (2). That's why the story's so incredible. It's so different from the stories about Lazarus or Apollonius.
Socrates: Yes, that sounds like transfiguration rather than resuscitation. But tell me, has Paul convinced you that, when a person dies, when her soul leaves her body, it continues to exist? I mean, did Paul say there was a time when Jesus didn't exist? That for about 40 hours he was completely wiped out, before the God recreated his soul and transformed his corpse into a spiritual body? Or did he say that when his soul left his body it went to another place? A place like Hades, where it was asleep or awake?
Epicurus: I think he said, or implied, the latter. That, when his soul left his body it went to Hades. And, then, about 40 hours later it returned to his body, which the God changed into a spiritual body. I think that's Paul's story. In the strict sense of the word, Jesus didn't die. Only his body did. And so, I suppose, there never was a time when he didn't exist.
Socrates: I understand your uncertainty about what Paul said. When we want to talk about death and dying, we struggle to find words for the ideas that comfort us. Why, only last week Crito asked me how I'd like to be buried!
Epicurus: He must've been joking! What did you tell him?
Socrates: What I always tell people. (3). As you please; provided you can catch me and I don't get away from you!
Epicurus: I'm sorry! You've lost me. What do you mean? It sounds as if you believe that dying is like migrating from one place to another. That it's like surrendering your citizenship in one place and acquiring citizenship somewhere else. You are beginning to sound like Paul. (4). Neither of you seem to think the story of your death is the last paragraph in your biography. Both of you think there's another paragraph. A story about slipping away to another place. Or a story about having an ugly and weak physical body turned into a beautiful and strong spiritual body. (5). I'm sorry! I just don't get it!
Socrates: Paul will have to speak for himself. I'm not into physical or spiritual bodies. Or, to be more precise, at the moment, I'm a soul in a physical body. But, when I die, I'll cease to exist, or I'll go to a place where people don't have bodies. I wish people will accept that I'm my soul. That it's my soul who talks and argues with you, instead of thinking I'm the body that's going to become a corpse. If you understand this, when you see my body being burned or buried, you won't grieve, as if something dreadful had happened to me. I sincerely hope you won't think you're burying me. I hope you'll see it's only my body you're burying. (6). Surely, that's not too difficult to understand? And so, I don't get what you don't get.
Epicurus: Fair enough. I should've been more explicit. I get your story. Dying is like migrating from one place to another. It's the ultimate trip! What I don't get is why you believe you'll make the trip. Why do you believe that, when you die, you'll start having a new set of experiences? Why don't you accept what I believe? When you die, you - or, if you like, your soul - is wiped out. It's obliterated. It ceases to exist. And so, when you die, that's it! You don't have a new set of experiences. Instead, you stop having experiences. This is why I've said nobody will ever feel what it's like to be dead. When we're alive, we can't feel what it's like to be dead. When we're dead, we also can't feel what it's like to be dead. (7). Why don't you and people like Paul get it? Dying is as uncomplicated as a candle going out. It's like being erased. Bingo! Your number comes up and your light goes out!
Socrates: I don't know what Paul would say about your story. As for me, it makes sense. In fact, at my trial, I told the jury we shouldn't suppose that death is something terrible. It's one of two good things. Either it's annihilation, as you believe, and so, when one dies, one doesn't have any new experiences. Or it's a change, a migration of the soul from this place to another. (8). I know I can't prove that dying is like migrating. But I hope it is.
Epicurus: I'm not looking for a proof, Socrates. But, tell me, why do you have this hope? Why do you hope that dying is like migrating to another place rather than being wiped out?
Socrates: The stories Pythagoreans tell about the transmigration of the soul have captured my imagination. You see, I understand your story. But I've invested my hope in a story like theirs: but it's a story about migration rather than transmigration. But I'm glad I've got your story. If my hope's disappointed, I'll never know that I backed the wrong horse!
Epicurus: I'm glad to hear that. It's a fair account of the difference between your understanding of death and mine. I think you should try to talk to Paul. Your stories are different; but you both hope to have experiences after you die. Neither of you share my belief that the universe consists only of atoms and the void. (9). Unlike you and Paul, I believe everything that exists can be detected by our senses. It can be weighed, or measured, or observed. That's why I don't share your hope. The two of you believe there's another world. A world that can't be detected by our senses. A world that isn't governed by the laws of physics. But that's enough from me. Let's go and see if we can find Paul. I'd like to hear what he says about our disagreement.
Socrates: That's a good idea. Also, I'd like to ask him why his hope rests on the belief that the God raised Jesus from the dead. I find this strange. Before he heard about Jesus, he must've known that the Pharisees believe the God raises the dead. So, why didn't he believe their story? Why didn't he believe the God raises the dead, until he heard that Jesus had been raised?
Epicurus: I don't know. But let's try to get his answer.
Socrates: Indeed. But it's more perplexing than that. He must've known what the Pharisees believe. But he also had Solomon's wisdom, which I was tempted to quote at my trial: In the eyes of the foolish they seem to have died, and their departure was thought to be a disaster, and their going from us to be their destruction; but they are at peace. For though in the sight of others they were punished, their hope is full of immortality. (10).
Epicurus: Look! There's Dionysius and Damaris. (11). And Paul's with them. I hope she's taking them home. I like her cooking! Let's see if she'll invite us to join them. It's a good way to celebrate my belief that it's easy to be happy. You only need a bit of food and a few friends. (12).
References
1 = Acts 17.16-34.
2 = 1 Corinthians 15.42.
3 = Plato, Phaedo, 115c.
4 = Philippians 3.20-21.
5 = 1 Corinthians 15.43.
6 = Plato, Phaedo, 115c-116a.
7 = Epicurus, Letter to Menoecus.
8 = Plato, Apology, 40c.
9 = Epicurus, Letter to Herodotus.
10 = Wisdom of Solomon 3.2-4.
11 = Acts 17.34.
12 = Epicurus, The Four-fold Medicine (Tetrapharmakos): You don't have to be afraid of the God. You can't feel what it's like to be dead. It's easy to get what's good and to endure what's terrible.
Part Two
Before they got to Dionysius, Damaris and Paul, Epicurus and Socrates told Descartes (1596-1650) about their conversation.
Descartes: I'm sorry I missed such an interesting discussion. But you didn't face the two questions I'd like to put to Paul.
Socrates: What are they?
Descartes: Let's begin with the one you should've asked, Socrates. The one that comes to mind if we assume you have died and gone to Hades. By the way, most of the stories I've heard about the place you hope to migrate to are a bit depressing.
Socrates: Why so? Why do you find stories about Hades depressing?
Descartes: Although the people who inhabit it are alive, they have a very shadowy sort of existence. From what I've heard, it isn't the sort of place I would migrate to! But that's not what I want to discuss with Paul.
Epicurus: I think it's a legitimate worry. But, if that isn't the problem, what's worrying you?
Descartes: Socrates and Paul are assuming that in the life after this one, they'll be immortal. (13). They'll live forever. They won't be annihilated.
Epicurus: That sounds like a reasonable assumption. What's wrong with assuming it's only in this life that we can't be certain we won't be annihilated?
Descartes: You seem to have forgotten what Paul told the Areopagus. The god who raised Jesus from the dead is the god who made the world and everything in it. He gives us the power to live, to move, and to be who we are. (14).
Epicurus: Yes, that's what he said. The God is the lord of heaven and earth. And he gives life and breath and everything else to all of us. It's incredible!
Descartes: It's not it's credibility that worries me. If it's true - and I think it is - then Socrates and Paul have a problem. How can they be certain the God will allow them to live forever? How can they be certain your story about ceasing to exist doesn't apply to the next life rather than to this one?
Epicurus: What do you mean?
Descartes: Can't you see the connection? Because the God has created us, he'll preserve us only for as long as he wants us to exist. Just as he didn't have to create us, he doesn't have to preserve us. And so, if there's a life after this one, and Socrates and Paul get what they hope for, they can't be certain it'll last forever. Let me put it this way. You can't be sure the God will annihilate you in this life. They can't be sure he won't annihilate them in the life after this one. So, this is one of the things I'd like to ask Paul. Why do you think the God will keep you alive forever?
Socrates: If I've got your point, you're telling me that in the place I hope I'm going to I'll have to keep on hoping I won't be annihilated. I suppose I'll also have to hope I won't have to migrate again! But what's the other question you've got for me and for Paul?
Descartes: My other question may not be for you, Socrates, because I've never heard you say the God is immortal. But Epicurus believes he is. (15). And so does Paul and some of his pupils. (16).
Socrates: I'm still thinking about it. But, tell me, what's worrying you? What's the worry about believing the God's immortal?
Descartes: The idea that he's immortal assumes it's impossible to imagine he will cease to exist. But this isn't impossible. So, one can't be sure he won't cease to exist. In fact, not even he can be sure he won't cease to exist!
Socrates: I think I know what you mean. But I'd like to be sure. So please tell me why you think that neither we nor the God can be sure he'll never cease to exist?
Descartes: I don't think I can improve on what I've said. But let me try. As always, it's about what can and can't be imagined. Because I can imagine the God existing for another minute, or whatever, I can imagine him not existing for that minute, or whatever. And so, I've got to decide what I'm going to imagine. But I'm free to imagine either of the two possibilities. So, I've got to accept I can't be sure what's going to happen. And, as for me, so for the God. Because he can imagine what I can imagine, he can't be sure he will or won't exist for another minute, or whatever.
Socrates: Descartes, don't you ever get uncertainty fatigue? I probably ask more questions than you do. But I never take my doubts as seriously as you take yours. No wonder theologians hate you.
Descartes: I don't know why they do. For sure, it's only mathematics and my own existence that I can't doubt. But that means faith is always the name of the believer's game. In this world, as well as in the ones that Socrates and Paul are hoping for.
Epicurus: Paul's hot on faith. But let's catch up with Damaris. Missing her baklava is worse than ceasing to exist!
References
13 = 1 Corinthians 15.53-55.
14 = Acts 17.24, 25 and 28.
15 = Epicurus, Letter to Menoecus.
16 = Romans 1.23; 1 Timothy 1.17.
Descartes: I'm sorry I missed such an interesting discussion. But you didn't face the two questions I'd like to put to Paul.
Socrates: What are they?
Descartes: Let's begin with the one you should've asked, Socrates. The one that comes to mind if we assume you have died and gone to Hades. By the way, most of the stories I've heard about the place you hope to migrate to are a bit depressing.
Socrates: Why so? Why do you find stories about Hades depressing?
Descartes: Although the people who inhabit it are alive, they have a very shadowy sort of existence. From what I've heard, it isn't the sort of place I would migrate to! But that's not what I want to discuss with Paul.
Epicurus: I think it's a legitimate worry. But, if that isn't the problem, what's worrying you?
Descartes: Socrates and Paul are assuming that in the life after this one, they'll be immortal. (13). They'll live forever. They won't be annihilated.
Epicurus: That sounds like a reasonable assumption. What's wrong with assuming it's only in this life that we can't be certain we won't be annihilated?
Descartes: You seem to have forgotten what Paul told the Areopagus. The god who raised Jesus from the dead is the god who made the world and everything in it. He gives us the power to live, to move, and to be who we are. (14).
Epicurus: Yes, that's what he said. The God is the lord of heaven and earth. And he gives life and breath and everything else to all of us. It's incredible!
Descartes: It's not it's credibility that worries me. If it's true - and I think it is - then Socrates and Paul have a problem. How can they be certain the God will allow them to live forever? How can they be certain your story about ceasing to exist doesn't apply to the next life rather than to this one?
Epicurus: What do you mean?
Descartes: Can't you see the connection? Because the God has created us, he'll preserve us only for as long as he wants us to exist. Just as he didn't have to create us, he doesn't have to preserve us. And so, if there's a life after this one, and Socrates and Paul get what they hope for, they can't be certain it'll last forever. Let me put it this way. You can't be sure the God will annihilate you in this life. They can't be sure he won't annihilate them in the life after this one. So, this is one of the things I'd like to ask Paul. Why do you think the God will keep you alive forever?
Socrates: If I've got your point, you're telling me that in the place I hope I'm going to I'll have to keep on hoping I won't be annihilated. I suppose I'll also have to hope I won't have to migrate again! But what's the other question you've got for me and for Paul?
Descartes: My other question may not be for you, Socrates, because I've never heard you say the God is immortal. But Epicurus believes he is. (15). And so does Paul and some of his pupils. (16).
Socrates: I'm still thinking about it. But, tell me, what's worrying you? What's the worry about believing the God's immortal?
Descartes: The idea that he's immortal assumes it's impossible to imagine he will cease to exist. But this isn't impossible. So, one can't be sure he won't cease to exist. In fact, not even he can be sure he won't cease to exist!
Socrates: I think I know what you mean. But I'd like to be sure. So please tell me why you think that neither we nor the God can be sure he'll never cease to exist?
Descartes: I don't think I can improve on what I've said. But let me try. As always, it's about what can and can't be imagined. Because I can imagine the God existing for another minute, or whatever, I can imagine him not existing for that minute, or whatever. And so, I've got to decide what I'm going to imagine. But I'm free to imagine either of the two possibilities. So, I've got to accept I can't be sure what's going to happen. And, as for me, so for the God. Because he can imagine what I can imagine, he can't be sure he will or won't exist for another minute, or whatever.
Socrates: Descartes, don't you ever get uncertainty fatigue? I probably ask more questions than you do. But I never take my doubts as seriously as you take yours. No wonder theologians hate you.
Descartes: I don't know why they do. For sure, it's only mathematics and my own existence that I can't doubt. But that means faith is always the name of the believer's game. In this world, as well as in the ones that Socrates and Paul are hoping for.
Epicurus: Paul's hot on faith. But let's catch up with Damaris. Missing her baklava is worse than ceasing to exist!
References
13 = 1 Corinthians 15.53-55.
14 = Acts 17.24, 25 and 28.
15 = Epicurus, Letter to Menoecus.
16 = Romans 1.23; 1 Timothy 1.17.
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